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"There is nothing is more musical than a sunset. He who feels what he sees will find no more beautiful example of development in all that book which, alas, musicians read but too little-the book of Nature." - Claude Debussy
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45 Reviews | 32 w/ Responses
Lack of reviews for this is a crime, it's a very elaborate and nuanced piece. I have to say though, ADD much? I understand your theme of 'spray of inspiration' but that effect is not unattainable through a slightly more unified piece with more identifiable thematic material. I don't think it's too far out to say that even a dream sequence can tie back to or include hints of something that will ultimately have the effect of being eerily familiar to the listener if accomplished effectively, despite turbulent motion through keys, times, texture, etc.
While taking key relationships, abrupt changes such as 1:15 have an obvious dramatic intent and while the effect is strong it grows more and more gimmicky the more it is used in a piece, essentially turning any subsequent key changes of that sort into more of a cliché (1:30, 1:44, 1:57, 2:02, 3:01; a lot for a three minute orchestral piece no? I mean, this isn't Mariah Carey :P).
Misc. notes: trumpet line at 1:21 is OBSCENELY high, even the sample sounds tight; reasonably speaking, the A or B below that should be the limit and even then only if approached safely. I loved the use of solo violin. This is like a patchwork quilt of ideas compressed into a tiny 3 minute box, but nothing is really developed and when the piece ends I feel as though relatively little has actually been accomplished. The good news is you have lots of materials fleshed out to be used elsewhere and to fuller effect.
The sound and overall effect/colour is gorgeous so definitely a 10 despite certain qualms, you def deserve it plus a 5, beautiful job!
(seriously this is rated waaaay too low, I'll try voting over the next few days to help out)
Author's Response:
Thank you SO MUCH for your review, this is insanely helpful. As you may have read in the description, this is only the "first draft," for many of the reasons you stated yourself! I will take all of these to heart for the revised version.
The length of the piece was especially a concern of mine as well, and I am currently attempting to remedy that. "Spastic/ADD" style is something I'm trying to shake. I'm just not entirely sure how to stretch everything out and develop it more fully.
As for the note about the trumpet, the software samplers I am using have the real limits on the notes for every instrument, so every note played is realistically playable. Perhaps those high notes are not played in such an agile manner as in the section you noted, but rest assured that there is not a single note played by any section that couldn't be played in a real orchestra.
And yes, thanks for the rating... I submitted this piece and instantly some person rated it a 1, without even having listened to it. And again, this review means a TON to me, thanks.
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But my first and foremost critique is about melody, except now it's a little different because there's a lot of melodic material in this piece, only it isn't always so clear. This isn't so much a compositional detail as merely volume control, but some areas (notably :19 - :27ish) could use some more clarity, in my opinion; I can hear lots of stuff going on but I guess my recommendation would be to be a bit clearer about what belongs in the foreground and what doesn't.
Now on to something remotely related, one thing I'd like to hear more of is variation on the same material you've already presented. This can manifest in any or all of several ways, and for this piece specifically I think melodic variation on the E D E C B (that is, until the nutty modulation that I love!) with Chopin-esque flairs in addition to maybe reharmonizing the main theme in parts would contribute a lot. PARTICULARLY at the modulation to Fm, some radical changes to the melody would be completely awesome; a modulation like that is just screaming for attention and why be dull and just do the same thing (compositionally speaking) again? ;)
I love the part at 1:00, melody could be a bit clearer versus the accompaniment but it was a great addition. The return to the main theme was also really well done, but I'm gonna have to agree with Winterwind on the ending, even if only because I know that you're capable of an awesome coda. If you plan on expanding this piece, I'd suggest writing out the B (1:00) and the return of the A section more extensively, and then add a bombastic coda at the end and voila, awesomeness in musical form all in a tidy ABA.
Anyhow, I think I've pretty much exhausted my (not-so-professional) critique, this was a really fun listen! Keep 'em coming, can't wait to hear more classical.
Author's Response:
Oh don't be silly - I'd never get upset at a serious critique. The reason I like your reviews is because they help me get better at seeing what I do wrong, really.
I'm already working on extending/re-shaping the song, taking all of your suggestions into accout. It will be done soon, given enough free time on my end!
Thanks again, Simon. I really do appreciate your input.
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What's this?...I'm actually getting around to returning the owed reviews? Nonsense. I really don't have much (if any) critique, so I'm just going to go into detail about how much I liked this piece.
See, one of the strangest things about the creative process is that with less, one has the potential to make more. That's speaking in very abstract terms, but it's true, and very much what you've accomplished here. I would not have guessed, were I the uninformed listener, that everything centers around this repeated D pattern. Partly, I suppose, because of the different qualities of the voices and thus the difficulty in actually hearing, even when trying consciously, the overlap, but that means next to nothing without the surrounding harmonies.
Stylistically, I found this piece to be one of the most unique pieces I've ever listened to.
I might suggest, say, trying out even more stuff with more extremes of the range of the instruments, but really that's not necessary. I feel like you've accomplished a lot with this piece, and it's certainly something to be proud of.
My other suggestions are immediately discredited by the fact that this is only the first movement to a multi-movement piece (i.e., more conclusive ending, more diversity).
In conclusion, great job on this, seriously looking forward to the rest (and I'm always here with a little thing I like to call GPO, if you're interested).
Author's Response:
Thanks a lot!!
That's pretty much all there is to respond... and yes, I will ask for your GPO services when I get around finishing it. Might take a little while though.
Oh and I'm very pleased with the comment on not hearing the overlap, that's why they overlap in the first place. I really aimed for a pool of sound and I guess it worked out pretty well!
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You and I, we should really collaborate on making awesome orchestrations of the OoT music. That would be really cool.
I have two little things to say, and one is melodically, the piece is a little unclear until the violins take over. One thing I find is that when giving a melody to the woodwinds, the surrounding registers pretty much have to be clear of any sustained notes or else the whole thing can get pretty jumbled. Of course, a much easier solution would be to pump up the volume a bit, or double the melody in a higher register in the flute (and possibly yet another octave with piccolo).
And then, the pizzicato bass. Now, I love pizzicato bass, but here I felt like it was sounding a little dry and even the notes got a little ambiguous at parts. My recommendation is to double the pizzicato dbl bass and octave up with pizzicato cellos, because the tone is more rounded. The lower lower register of the double bass is really tricky because it's powerful but can get rather stiff and sometimes the notes themselves can be hard to discern.
Oh, and one last request: make it loooonger!
More reviews in the works, merry belated Christmas. ;)
Author's Response:
Thanks! I do love your reviews, you know - it'd REALLY be fun to see what you have to say about my non-classical stuff - but let's not push my luck :)
That collab will take place. I've had a few other ideas, such as working from the start of some of the warp tunes (Nocturne of Shadow!) and making them into a 4 minute or so, er, thing. Might even have a stab at the Bolero of Fire which I find rather hideous as it is. But let's discuss that on MSN soon.
I must admit I rushed this one a little once I finally got the harmonization done, so the arrangement is indeed somewhat too sparse.
Woodwind/sustain comment seems very fair and I'll have to look into that more.
I did have to make B,F,B,F,D,A the melody which by definition is rather unstable. So I made the borderline generic violin coda to add some spine... glad that at least worked. Now to work toward giving the oboe its due credit :)
The contrabasses in tone really just complement the violas, with some suspensions, but mainly root notes added, and for the rest just serve as a rhythm indication. In order for your suggestion to work, the score would have to be better to begin with... but it's good advice for future endeavors, no doubt.
It's already too long for what it was intended as...
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Well composed, well thought out, and for starters I absolutely loved the dissonance.
I guess my first critique, 'cus I never let anyone off easy ;), is the melody. As pianists we often forget just how melodic an instrument can get, and while the melody is clear some of the time, the melodic lines remain largely ambiguous and indistiguishable from other voices. The piece is beautiful to listen to, but what gives the listener something to remember after is an extraordinary melody that simply won't go away (which can get annoying, so make the melody a good one, I say). I think the nocturnes of Chopin are an excellent example of the piano functioning melodically as well as harmonically in this kind of context, even with countermelodies.
And the other thing I have to say is, make it longer! You have an excellent start, but what makes a piece is not only the beginning but where you take it. Whenever you get the time, I would love it if you could take these ideas and expand them. Maybe considering using ternary form (ABA) to expand it a little, using what you have now as the A section (which is an ABA in of itself, but still missing a true companion section to my ears).
Exceptional job! Sorry it took so long to get back to you, I'm an awfully lazy reviewer...
Author's Response:
Oh, what an excellent review. You clearly know what you're talking about musically, because it is, in fact, the melody that frustrated me about this piece. It's just so mediocre! And it has so much potential to be a really beautiful piece. I wrote it late at night, you know? I just wanted it to be done.
All of my piano pieces are somewhat short; you're right. The only reason is laziness, I suppose, but in my defense, it's a lot of tedious work to go through every note in a piece and compress it,velocitize it, EQ it, slave the tempo and shelf... make it sound at least somewhat like a real piano. The FL keys sound terrible on their own, and I just won't allow myself to have a sone I write sound that shitty - and they don't even sound that great when they're done.
But back to your critique - I think what you said is very insightful, even if I was already aware of it as a flaw. To be honest, I probably won't go back to this piece (when I finish a song, I tell myself I will, but have yet to do so), but I will keep what you said in mind for future pieces.
Thank you, not just for your review, but for the thought you put into it. If you have any work for me to score, I will do so!
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The shortest review I will ever write. Because we're just that awesome.
Author's Response:
The shortest response I'll ever write, because we're just that incredible.
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"By glancing at the order in which the six orchestral groups are placed, strings, wood-wind, brass, plucked strings, percussion producing definite, and those producing indefinite sounds, the reader will be able to determine the part played by each in the art of orchestration, from the secondary standpoint of colour and expression. As regards expression, the strings come first, and the expressive capacity of the other groups diminishes in the above order, colour being the only attribute of the last group of percussion instruments.
The same order obtains from the standpoint of general effect in orchestration. We can listen to strings for an almost indefinite period of time without getting tired, so varied are their charactaristics. The addition of a single group of strings will add lustre to a passage for wind instruments. On the other hand, the quality of the wind instruments soon becomes wearisome; the same may be said of plucked strings, and also percussion of every kind which should only be employed at reasonable intervals in orchestral composition."
-Principles of Orchestration, Rimsky-Korsakov (translated by Edward Agate)
Now, that's a hefty block of text, but what it's saying is basically what I was getting at in my review of 'A Hero Reborn'; a lot more effect can be achieved with the use of instrument groups, in particular strings and brass, when keeping rhythms than just the dull repetition of a beat with percussion (that's how I interpret this passage of his, anyway). In my opinion, this also gives the composer good opportunity to practice achieving colour in creative manners, thereby increasing their general comprehension of an orchestra.
With that general point aside, I'll get down and dirty and start working with specifics (a lot of this will be personal preference; keep in mind that I don't consider myself the ultimate authoritative figure on orchestration, but perhaps what I say will help you).
Let's start, logically enough, with the beginning. In this place, just imagine the effect of marcato strings and crazy cracked out woodwind lines instead of that dull percussion! The effect I get from lots and lots of doubled strings and then just a percussion beat in the background is effective enough, but I think simplistic in scope. Runs, arpeggios, trills, supported beneath by a strong repeated marcato note in the dbl basses (most likely doubled an octave higher by cellos for the best severe tone) would add, I think, a much broader sense of the confusion and madness associated with a ship at sea, being buffeted by wind. The sense I got from the piece as it stands is more like a war march, because of its strong foundation in the tonic (fully diminished seventh chords, for example, offer a great basis for crazy chromatisism and harmonic confusion that could be associated with a storm) and heavy reliance upon the snare and timpani hits for the beat.
One general point I'd like to make about the meledies starting around :41 are their lack of rhythmic variety. There are other patterns in 5/4 that work melodically besides 1 2 3 4 1 (such as 1 2 3 1 2, or 1 2 1 2 3), and I'd recommend experimenting with those in counterpoint. Then, I think, one might get an even better sense of being tumbled about, owing to the different natures of the opposing melodic lines.
And finally, from about 1:42 onward, there isn't much of an apparent bass line. Particularly from 1:49 onward, the lack of a bassline really detracts from the "orchestra hit" quality of the notes, because the only other emphasis is the cymbal, which adds attack but makes the notes feel very empty without some "filling in the blanks".
I think that just about does it for this review. Hope some of this helps. Quickly, before I end, here are some corrections to the review I left on A Hero Reborn:
1) The reference to Principles of Orchestration was to the above quoted passage.
2) When talking about the ending, I meant Db in the note sequence, not D natural.
Okay, I'm really done this time, I swear.
Author's Response:
I remember us having a long discussion about this review and the review for "A Hero Reborn", so I don't really see the need to repeat myself :).
But, I will say that I appreciate your input a lot, it's great to get someone as knowledgable as yourself give another opinion. Some of the changes you recommended sound fantastic!
Again, thanks for all your support and feedback, I'll always be willing to return the favor.
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I finally got of my lazy arse and decided to return the favor of all of your wonderful reviews that you've left, so here at last is the start to my repaying you.
Not a whole lot to say about the intro, I felt that there was lots of unused opportunity for some more melodic material, perhaps more horn-flute interaction.
Anyhoo, my other little picky thing is at the section starting at 1:29; the percussion was hallow sounding. Of course, too much oomph wouldn't suit the passage at all, but the line probably could have been doubled with tuba or trombone to give it a nice deep resonance without detracting from the more ethereal quality of the glockenspiel (or whatever that was) and the woodwinds (I think the harshness of the brass would be softened by the dullness of the timpani hit).
Okay, next section. If you'll forgive me and my shameless plugging of "Simon's Theories on Developing Comprehension of an Orchestra", the first thing I'd like to recommend is trying out experimenting with giving these march rhythms to strings and brass in creative manners, because I fill that the presence of a pitch capable of being altered a) adds more emphasis to the beats, and b) doesn't get as dull as quickly. I don't have Principles of Orchestration with me, but if I did I'd quote the paragraph that basically says that percussion should be used at reasonable intervals in composition. Perhaps it's more of a personal preference thing, but I think a lot more can be gleaned by practicing with rhythms in other instruments than from just throwing it to percussion.
Hm, I wasn't a huge fan of the Db thrown in at 2:29, or at least, not by itself. Myself, I would've loved to hear a resolution to C, allowing a two-half-diminished-seventh chord (referring to the section as though Bb minor were its key signature; I'm not sure whether you actually notated that or not, because some don't bother, but for the sake of simplicity I'll set Bb minor as the standard for this) and then a chromatic descent into the Cb of the vii chord (great choice of resolutions, by the way, using the minor seven and the four together is huge favorite of mine).
I'm not sure what you were trying to do at 2:46 (Cb major chord?) with the brass but none of the surrounding harmonies changed to fit it and it sounded very dissonant only to suddenly resolve to an octave, which felt very empty.
The ending was really cool except for the actual finale. I would have LOVED to hear some expansion with that very Arabian sounding coda before it ended. Even three or four measures more would have evened the pace out and brought it to a proper BANG ending, but ending it right before the second measure of a four measure melody made it very sudden and unresolved, because we're expecting the nice little Ab, Eb, D, Gb, Eb sequence and all of a sudden...silence!
Well, that concludes this review. It's midnight now, so I'll be off to get some sleep, but I plan on sending more review your way in due course.
Did I sound like an asshole? Well, yeah, but I did love this piece. The modulations were smooth and interesting, and it certainly kept my attention throughout. I suppose that what I'd like to emphasize the most in this is; more creativity with rhythms in other instrument groups, and more abuse of melodic material, and by that I mean, expanding a little more with the melodic potential in a place like the beginning (so that it doesn't get a sense of pure harmony) and then just taking an awesome melody like the one at the end and then squeezing a bit more fun out of it and taking it further. ;)
Once again, lovely piece, a pleasure to listen to. Hope some of this helps, 'cus I'll be writing some more of it in the near future.
Author's Response:
Wow.
Jezz, where do I start?!
First off, horn and flute interaction may not be the 'best' option for the triumphant, rising feeling, but perhaps a viola (or violin) would fill the position. Who knows, I'll give everything a shot!
Interesting thoughts about the doubing of percussion at 1:29, I am intrigued by the idea.
The Db was used to create a dominant 7th chord lead to g-minor, although what you may not have liked is the fact that I used Gb instead of a conventional G, creating a more dissonant chord. If you gave it another run through, you may find that the Gb is the culprit, not the Db. Nonetheless, I understand what you are saying here.
As for the ending, glad you enjoyed the arabic feel. That was a fluke that it sounded like that. I actually had an oboe in there that made it sound even more arabic (it played around with a harmonic scale). I really enjoyed the ending progression you gave me (with the Db instead of D edit you left me in another review), I'm off to go play around with that a bit.
Did you sound like an Asshole? No, every piece of criticsm was not hateful , but inteded as another opinion, which is exactly what I want. These are the best kind of reviews!
Thanks a load Simon!
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So little to criticize, I really love this piece.
Might want to fix that little volume glitch at the beginning... But no matter, in any event, the subsquent melody and harmony were very beautiful and delicate. You might want to tell your pianist to be gentler with the chords (unless it was an electric piano, in which case I understand); the voices were played rather harshly, particularly around :20 - :21 ish, and I don't think it did the portion justice. Their use of pedal was very deft, though. Again, the harmonies were lovely, I loved the kind of sneaky mischevious atmosphere achieved.
The second section, though brief, was very lovely. Nevertheless, I felt it was a bit too much of a trifle. Too thin, to random. A bit more could have been done with that, using it as a transition rather than a sharp interruption.
Third section started too sharply for my tastes (though again, this is about performance, not composition). I really liked the chords at the ending.
Ah, again, I don't have much to say. It's a beautiful little piece, well done.
Author's Response:
See? I knew you'd have some interesting stuff to say! :)
Yeah that volume glitch sucks, it happened when I imported the .cda as a .wav and it wouldn't stop doing that no matter how many times I tried, so I covered it up with... something... chorus I think, I don't quite remember.
And yes, it's on an electrical piano which truly costs it some nuance.
I can see where you're coming from on that second section - not sure if I agree with that because I rather adore it myself and have picked out the notes very carefully :) but perhaps it should be extended a bit and finally dissolve into the final chords.
Third section, I agree, the only thing I'm not exactly happy with in this performance, mainly because the second chord comes too soon.
Thanks for picking it apart, all points very interesting again!! Good talking to you today as well :)
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Once again, I have figured how to use headphones in conjunction with random computers in internet cafes.
First major point, the strong beat! Throughout the first theme we're given at most two strong beats, and it loses it's Mazurkaness very quickly and kinda just sounds like it's toodling on...and on... Not for very long, but I think more strong beats would help keep up the momentum. Indeed, what Chopin would do is use counterpoint between the notes on the strong beats (weak beats too, but inparticular the strong beats) and the melody, and so a countermelody, however simple (one note every three beats doesn't leave a whole lot of creativity) would benefit the piece a lot, methinks. As David said, the accents were nice, but all of that is lost if there's no "home base" so to speak. I don't mean to say "strong beat" as though it is the emphasized one; David is absolutely right about the different emphasis in Mazurkas. However, emphasis is all relative, which is important to keep in mind.
Next, more dynamic contrasts would be nice. You have nice dynamics, but a larger range would serve for a nicer human playback experience. I liked the use of crescendos, and I'm thinking that some more extremes will make the moods more distinct and detract from the MIDIness that David has brought up. The piano you're working with is not fantastic, admitadly, but it's good enough that with a bit more MPCs and such thrown it the result would be a more natural flow. Particularly when you have the tremolos in the bass and the chords in the right hand, more MPCs controlling volume and such would make it sound less clangy and unnatural.
I loved your harmonies, very jazzy yet retaining much of the grace and smoothness of Chopin.
Here's a hint; if you have chords in a place with the melody somewhere in the chord, create a seperate piano staff and write out the melody in that one, adding appropriate dynamics such that the melody stands out.
Alrighty, I have to go, my time in the internet cafe is up, but great endeavor with this. I can tell you have a good ear for this!
Author's Response:
Thanks a bunch for your detailed comments! There are a few things that I find unclear, but I'll PM you about those. It's great that you are willing to spend so much time on my stuff!
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